It's a numbers game. I know from personal experience that a small amount of immigration from a particular culture will tend to assimilate quickly. However, once the numbers reach a certain tipping point, the desire to integrate with the home nation disappears entirely because it is possible to create a culture within a culture. I remember we were all scolded by TPTB in the 90's and onwards that we should be happy to have a multicultural society but a) that's a contradiction in terms - society is a cohesive body of people with similar values etc; and b) no one asked those living here if they wanted that - it was imposed. To use your party analogy Ragged, its like mum and dad are away for the weekend and the teens put a party invitation on Facebook and the house is swamped and trashed.
No, it's the sheer numbers moving into our tiny country, disrespecting our culture and history and at the same time draining the welfare state with a sneer of contempt for those of us who pay for it.
That's right, Bettina. It’s not even just about ethnicity or religion. It's about culture.
America does a really good job of integration, at least in the places I lived. Silicon Valley might be the most diverse population in the world but there is almost no segregation. At my daughter’s school, the teacher asked all the eight-year-olds in her class, “Who has American parents?” and only one child put her hand up. And yet, everyone got along together. we all went to the same parties and shared our food and music. My neighbours were Russian, German, Indian and American - but they all sat on my porch and shared my homemade cider and Sergei shared his vodka and pickled herrings.
Bristol, where I live now, is the opposite. Bristol might be the most liberal city in the country. It’s very diverse and yet it’s almost completely segregated. The Somalis live in one corner, Indians over here, Pakistanis over there and the Black British somewhere else. There is almost no mixing. You occasionally see a mixed-race couple walking hand in hand but when there’s a big group of friends down by the harbour, they are almost all of one race.
America does it best with its “melting pot” model of integration: come to our country but we need you to become Americans. There’s a little segregation of the first-generation but eventually, new immigrants will integrate. I think the multiculturalism that we prefer here causes more cultural segregation and, ultimately, racism.
I used to live near Bristol/Bath, born in Trowbridge and still have family there. Considered the happening place, or the actual hell, depending who you asked; it's where stuff happened. On a smaller scale it's exactly like London, everyone in their postcode: Clifton, Totterdown, Lawrence Hill etc c.f. Islington, Brixton, Brent etc. Even now, the other side of the country, if I catch a train to Nunhead, for example, the ticket guy does that watch your back eyebrows thing. Soon moving to the North East where, outside of Newcastle, it's much like the UK was in 1980. Which I remember fondly.
Good luck with your move! My son was at university in Durham until recently - and I agree, the countryside. towns and villages in the area are reminiscent of our lost society and culture. We have moved to Cornwall to find again our country.
Where in Cornwall do you live in Cornwall, Bettina? My daughter went to university in Falmouth a couple of years ago and I joined the Navy in Torpoint many years ago.
Oh I know Torpoint very well!! Boyfriend was a naval dentist at the base - must have been 1979 or 1980 at the start of his commission. Currently backwards and forwards to Cornwall from Marlow - building a house in Feock - although I used to live on the north coast and my daughters live down there....
I had my teeth savaged by a Naval dentist in 1982. I hope that wasn't your boyfriend!
At the time, new entrants were the lowliest of the low and dentists had complete authority over them. The dentist wanted to replace my broken front teeth with crowns and I did as I was told. Every dentist since has laughed at me saying my crowns looked like they were from the stone age. I am still having problem 40 years later!
I so agree with you! It seems the policy in this country has been to encourage segregation rather than integration, for example with government agencies providing information in twenty different languages rather than encouraging newcomers to use English.
I had an Indian boyfriend in the mid-Seventies and he was one of 5 children. His father hated English people (obviously had a chip on his shoulder) and was always trying to arrange Indian marriages for his offspring, who were totally culturally assimilated in England (being a significant minority at that time) and they laughingly rejected (and importantly because they were integrated were ABLE to reject) the idea of their father picking their spouses. They all married ethnically English and Dutch people.
Fast forward 30 years and I'm living in a wealthy Indian enclave on the London - Hertfordshire border called Moor Park, which the locals jokingly referred to as Moor Pakistani. In fact it wasn't Pakistani at all, but mainly Hindu. It is Little India with very large houses occupied by extended and multi-generational Indian families. (Hilariously, a Sikh friend used to moan that he needed to move into Buckinghamshire because he couldn't stand living where there were no English people!). Anyway, the result was that the Indian community in that area and surroundings have become a world within a world: marriages are arranged within the community, children only play with other children from their ethnic grouping and the local prep schools and holiday camps were 'spot the white kid'. At my daughters' school as soon as the girls became teenagers, the Indian parents who had hitherto been friendly and would reciprocate with play dates, would from the age of 11, stop them mixing with the white girls because they thought they would lead them astray into decadent behaviour - so there was very little mixing, bar a few rebels. Even at a young age they were not encouraged to mix - I remember inviting two muslim children to one of my daughter's birthday parties and they refused to eat anything because it was 'unclean' (they were too young to know how to be diplomatic and were obviously parroting a parental warning) and they sat mute through the entire proceedings because they felt alien, despite my best endeavours to encourage them to join in the games. They all only adopted this behaviour because they didn't NEED to integrate - they had their own communities.
In my opinion, we need zero immigration - simply on the basis that we are an overcrowded country with an inability to feed ourselves without imports - madness in a politically unstable world where Net Zero will demand that there is no air travel and no shipping certainly by 2050 - sounds like a recipe for food rationing leading to malnutrition and the sorts of diseases that were prevalent in Victorian England. I start to get all conspiracy theorist with this - population reduction is surely the aim, no? We have insufficient housing (and no, the answer is not to build on agricultural land and exacerbate a brewing food shortage; nor is it to house people in towering chicken coops in cities - totally inhuman) and creaking infrastructure. Secondly, we need hyper-integration - in education, reasserting our culture and values and fantastic history in schools and universities; and with social integration, mixing our genes to create biologically superior hybrids - like plants, resistant to disease, good-looking and intelligent!
Naomi Wolf has written on her Substack about the change in America in recent decades - how new immigrants do not feel the need to integrate and become American any more. She describes California growing up as like your experience in Silicon Valley - in fact, I think she lived near there - maybe you've read her stuff - it's so good. She was a leftie, like you! No longer.
I totally agree, Bettina! (I have a feeling that you and I agreed in another post recntly- LSO) I think the combination of high numbers and cultures who refuse to (or don't need to) integrate is a recipe for disaster, and erodes the social fabric. As you mentioned, this was forced on the locals and it has dramatically altered their lives. Irreversibly. Yet, they are called 'racists' when they dare to complain.
I'm so vividly reminded of that snooty Labour politician, I forget her name but she married into the aristocracy, who tweeted out her horror at entering the Medway towns (Strood to be precise) due to all the white vans and England flags. It was very probably about eight years ago, during one of those optimistic two-week periods where the football team hadn't been knocked out of the footy, yet.
Yes, I remember that. Incredible! I live in Hungary and there is still a strong sense of cultural identity here, where raising the flag or singing the national anthem is not frowned upon.
When regular people express many of the sentiments you do, they are dismissed as xenophobes and bigots. So it’s no wonder that they begin to resent the newcomers.
Personally I think they should reserve their resentment for those who imposed this change upon them and their communities in the first place. Very often those people, the elites, have no experience of the negative effects of mass, sudden immigration on their own lives. They just get the Baba Ganoush.
Thank you, Mr LSO. I've meaning to write this for a while. There was just one too many "they are just racists" comments on Twitter this morning that got me typing.
Yes. It’s not helping. It’s like people aren’t allowed to notice how their towns and communities are changing. And are punished if they do. I try to stay off Twitter. It’s vexing, as the kids say.
I really enjoyed this post and just came across it by chance (when reading your comments on 2 other substacks) Until some years ago, I was very firmly left/liberal/pro-immigration, but I experienced a number of redpill moments. I am not anti-immigration, though. I just feel that (as Bettina mentioned) numbers matter, but so does culture and the reasons why you are immigrating. As we have seen from events in the U.K, Germany, France and elsewhere it definitely isn't always because you like the country you are moving to. In some cases, you actually hate it and want to do it harm (as with home-grown terrorism) I liked your analogy of the party. I think multiculturism can only work when all parties are invested in making it work. And the more incompatible the culture, and higher the number, the less likely that will happen, until, eventually, you have parallel societies.
I am still pro-immigration but I think it's important to acknowledge and understand the other side's point of view. And, though I support immigration, I think the numbers are out of control in the UK and I hope the incoming government is able to do something about them.
Thanks for stopping by, Through the Looking Glass!
I completely agree. I read somewhere 'It's about space not race' and I think that's quite accurate. I dislike the way people have been accused of being far right/racist, when that generally isn't their reason for opposing mass immigration.
I'm an immigrant but not part of an immigrant community (while being in contact with it through some work I do), and I am HEAVILY skewed towards assimilationism, partially because I genuinely think that in terms of values and ways the host culture is significantly better than the original culture in 9 out of 10 matters. Food and drink notwithstanding. And the attitudes of contempt and judgement that that particular group of immigrants displays when talking among themselves TOWARDS the host culture makes me genuinely want to kick them back where they came from. The fact that I work with people who require help in the justice system or social services context probably biases me heavily, but still.
Even putting aside the question of whether one culture is superior to another, it’s a little odd to go to another country and reject the host culture entirely. As with my party above, it’s cool to bring along a special dish from the old country but it’s rude to entirely reject what the hosts are serving.
I tend to feel repelled by the idea of 'assimilation' when it comes to immigration.
It seems to me there are two options to avoid the 'separate cultures forming their own little islands' issue when it comes to immigrants. Assimilate or Integrate. I'm an integrationist! People should become an integral part of the whole - absolutely wonderfully themselves but also very much mixing and sharing with people from different cultures within the community. They should not have to assimilate to be 'the same, or similar'.
I agree with this entirely. I think there's a fear of subsuming the minority culture by the majorly -- assimilation by accident or force -- that can drive the separation.
That said, sometimes you need to make a choice, because the values and customs are in conflict. The best example is probably child upbringing, where host culture (and law!) might for example forbid corporal punishment, or arranged marriage at early age, or parents forcing children to participate in religious rituals, and the immigrant culture might clash with that, not just on a community level but full force of the law and social services.
I'm a child of migrants and I agree. However, I think it's important to recognise that migration in large numbers tends to be because of mass upheaval in the countries of the migrants. Given the prolific interference of successive British governments in the affairs of said countries, any discontent, or anger, about it should be taken up with the government, not taken out on the migrants themselves! Get the government, along with its partners in crime the US and various EU countries, to stop causing mayhem and economic misery abroad and the problem would go away.
I'd also like to mention that it's not just loss of culture that's an issue when mass migrations occurs. It floods job markets in areas already struggling with unemployment and/or low wages, allows for exploitative 0 hour contracts, and causes rent increases - all of these affect the poorest members of society.
Sadly, anger at these outcomes is often expressed in 'racist' languages and I think that's because people are deliberately not equipped with the language and the economic knowledge to express their real concerns. And that's convenient for those who benefit most; both from the upheaval that caused the mass migration, and the problems it causes in the countries people migrate to!
I agree that many of the problems were caused by Empire and British intervention in other countries’ business but, eventually, we’ll have to stop blaming the governments of long ago. As I said in my post, I think immigration is fine — a good thing even — but it's a question scale. If there are too many immigrants coming from a culture that is very different than ours, it’s hard for them to integrate.
I agree with the rest of your comment but would add that racism was horrific in the 50s and 60s. It has not gone away entirely but it is much better than it was. We are getting better, I think.
By 'Successive Governments' I was not inferring past and not present. I make no claim that interference stopped at any point. It's ongoing right up to the government of TODAY!
And that's the point I'm making... 'Too many immigrants coming from a culture that is very different than ours' wouldn't happen if the government wasn't wreaking havoc in their country. So we can get all sniffy about them not being able to integrate but maybe they just really, really, really would LOVE to go home!
And anyway, what is 'ours' when it comes to culture?
I think the “blame imperialism” argument is a bit of a red herring. I just moved to the UK from Poland, which has never had an empire and which hasn’t been involved in the internal politics of any countries which aren’t a direct neighbour. Nevertheless, immigration and the difficulties of how to persuade people to integrate is a big political issue there.
My problem with the view that Orwell promoted is that there is not … nor has there ever been … a sense of British culture that anyone has ever been able to define or agree upon. The “British” culture to which Orwell alludes was just as much inside his head as the supposed notion you mention that somehow Brits are in thrall to drinking IPA. The idea that we all, somehow, cling onto the same thing, is a nonsense.
The problem is change. With or without the presence of immigrants (from wherever) there IS change. The UK in 2025 has a radically different culture from the UK of 1925 or 1825 or ….
Change WILL happen. The question is only this: what change do we embrace and what do we reject? And why? “Integration” is really only a way of saying the change should be smooth rather than turbulent … it should really not predetermine precisely what happens.
It may be that there is not and never has been a single thread of culture but we have common traditions like sharing a cup of tea and going for a beer at the pub after work that we would all recognise as British culture, even if we don't all take part.
Traditions change over time and, as I said, they change under the influence of immigrant cultures too. I welcome that. What I object to is an immigrant culture that maintains its separation from British culture. Multiculturism encourages this and, with immigration on the scale that we are currently experiencing, it happens too quickly.
Dream on. Going for a drink after work is something I, and many others, have never done. Far too likely to have to endure some opinionated bar-room pundit. Many would regard it as a failing in British society.
Too many people bandy the word “multiculturalism” about, claiming it has failed. In fact it was so ill-defined in the first place that there are no criteria by which it can be judged to have failed. We are where we are and finger-pointing exercises are no solution.
So what is your workable plan?? Without one, what you are saying amounts to very little. Carrots rather than sticks would be best I think.
I lived in Silicon Valley for over twenty years. It must be the most ethnically diverse community in the world and yet everyone hangs out together. There are Chinese festivals and everyone goes. Everyone eats Ethiopian food together. Everyone celebrates Diwali and goes to the Dicken's Faire and everyone's kids play soccer on a Saturday afternoon. When we had kids' friends over for a sleepover, we averaged six different ethnicities every time.
In my English city, now that I am home, the Somalis hang out together in one corner and the Pakistanis in another. Neither group talks to the other or to the English natives. Whenever I see a multi-ethnic group of schoolchildren, they are segregated.
Someone decided long ago that it is more important for immigrants to maintain their native culture than to integrate with ours. That is multi-culturalism.
There are about 70 pubs within a mile of my house and they are full every evening — with white people.
Yes, but at the risk of repeating myself: your plan is what?? Without a plan, it all sounds like Chicken Licken running about saying the sky is going to fall in. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Maybe we will have bigger things to worry about. But, what plan do you have??
More controversially, we could limit immigration from cultures that don't seem to want to mix. Some cultures have a culture of misogyny and patriarchy that makes it harder for women to integrate. I think that high achievers integrate much better too (and perhaps that helps explain why Silicon Valley is so integrated) .
> I think an acknowledgement that encouraging different cultures to remain distinct is a bad idea would be a good start.
I think there's a lot that we could do to encourage communities to mix a lot more than they do. Recent immigrants especially, in Bristol, seem to have no interest in mixing with other cultures.
Indeed no. But then I don’t think the ones doing that would deign to “hang out” with members of other communities. It seems to me that they are the isolationists, not the immigrants.
The more we live in separate communities the more likely there will be conflict IMO regardless of the good intentions of good people like you.
Where I live in Bristol, people from other ethnic groups seem to have no ambition to make friends outside their communities. I've spoken to only one Somali in seven years.
Why should everyone hang out together?? We get on well enough day to day. Mostly people spend down-time with their families.
I, too, live in an ethnically diverse community in the UK. There is a mosque within 5 minutes walk. The pubs are by and large white … and I would not dream of setting foot in them because they are, frankly, naff. Diwali is celebrated, as is Chinese New Year. There is an Asian food store, a Korean supermarket, a Turkish cafe, a sushi bar and a regular greengrocer’s shop, as well as a Coop and a Sainsbury’s. The lads over the road from me are Sri Lankans, the bloke two doors down (native Brit) is married to. an Indonesian Muslim woman. Four doors down there is an Iranian married to a Danish woman. Four doors the other way there is a mixed rave marriage … both Brits by birth.
The UK is not, and never has been, like the USA. So your point is what, exactly?? And if you think there is a problem, I repeat my central question: what workable plan do you have to solve the problem??
Your point being what, precisely?? Why do you expect people to go to the pub?? Our NHS might not be so stretched if there was less alcohol consumed.
I think if we don't hang out together, it increases the risk of racial and ethnic resentment which will potentially lead to violence and political overreaction.
I believe the existing policy was misguided and I don't know how to fix it but I think an acknowledgement that encouraging different cultures to remain distinct is a bad idea would be a good start.
There are plenty of people I talk to. Why do you assume that there is increased risk of holding racial and ethnic resentment because I don’t actually hang out with them??? I used to have nice chats about gardening with the bloke at our local Bangladeshi takeaway while waiting to pick up the meal. The only piece of steaming resentment I recall recently was from a well-spoken taxi driver from Syria who had come to this country, paid his way through a business law degree at Leicester and then found himself frozen out of jobs and having to drive taxis to pay off his debts. There was teal bitterness there, and I can’t say I blame him, because he was clearly very bright.
Now who was it who was refusing to hang out with whom??
Hello Ragged. I hope you are well. Great stuff, and as always I am always interested in your take on our current world. But please, it’s not soccer…..😆
I played football three times a week in California for twenty years. Every time I tell someone I played football in California, they say, English football or American football? I decided to cut out the middleman.
Wandered over from Slouching Towards Bethlehem, and I'm glad I did. Particularly like how you quote Orwell's very relevant words. He was, still is, sneered at for appreciating Englishness, strong cups of tea, and his early days in the colonial service. More recently he is taken to task for maybe being something of a womanizer, if not rather a cnut towards women. The urge to cancel that which we disapprove of, to banish it altogether, is deeply suspect. And the insistence that 'natives' change their ways, or at least keep quiet, so that newer guests feel more comfortable, is exactly the same. Your party analogy summarises this really well.
Having been non-carnivorous all my adult life I see many, mostly younger, people who stridently insist that the majority who enjoy barbecues, pork chops, and a Sunday roast, refrain from doing so if you don't mind. I totally get what people do.
As it happens my favourite local shop is the butchers. I don't much appreciate the raw meat or the smells of the spicy sausages but the bargain sacks of potato, exotic cheeses and fresh veggies are fabulous and my momentary discomfort is soon forgotten.
Really it's just good manners isn't it? Another thing George Orwell was pretty keen on. I will laugh long and loud if Reform achieve an electoral break-through in the next few weeks. Lots of people are saying they will vote for them as an f.u. to the smug leaders-in-waiting. The exact same people who chant about Rights, and BLM, and stab you in the back at the first opportunity,
And anyway... what do these bereft people do about it? Do they set up a morris dancing club? Do they learn about Churchill desperately rounding up allies to defeat nazism?
No ... when the fancy takes them they put a banger up their arse.
It's a numbers game. I know from personal experience that a small amount of immigration from a particular culture will tend to assimilate quickly. However, once the numbers reach a certain tipping point, the desire to integrate with the home nation disappears entirely because it is possible to create a culture within a culture. I remember we were all scolded by TPTB in the 90's and onwards that we should be happy to have a multicultural society but a) that's a contradiction in terms - society is a cohesive body of people with similar values etc; and b) no one asked those living here if they wanted that - it was imposed. To use your party analogy Ragged, its like mum and dad are away for the weekend and the teens put a party invitation on Facebook and the house is swamped and trashed.
No, it's the sheer numbers moving into our tiny country, disrespecting our culture and history and at the same time draining the welfare state with a sneer of contempt for those of us who pay for it.
That's right, Bettina. It’s not even just about ethnicity or religion. It's about culture.
America does a really good job of integration, at least in the places I lived. Silicon Valley might be the most diverse population in the world but there is almost no segregation. At my daughter’s school, the teacher asked all the eight-year-olds in her class, “Who has American parents?” and only one child put her hand up. And yet, everyone got along together. we all went to the same parties and shared our food and music. My neighbours were Russian, German, Indian and American - but they all sat on my porch and shared my homemade cider and Sergei shared his vodka and pickled herrings.
Bristol, where I live now, is the opposite. Bristol might be the most liberal city in the country. It’s very diverse and yet it’s almost completely segregated. The Somalis live in one corner, Indians over here, Pakistanis over there and the Black British somewhere else. There is almost no mixing. You occasionally see a mixed-race couple walking hand in hand but when there’s a big group of friends down by the harbour, they are almost all of one race.
America does it best with its “melting pot” model of integration: come to our country but we need you to become Americans. There’s a little segregation of the first-generation but eventually, new immigrants will integrate. I think the multiculturalism that we prefer here causes more cultural segregation and, ultimately, racism.
I used to live near Bristol/Bath, born in Trowbridge and still have family there. Considered the happening place, or the actual hell, depending who you asked; it's where stuff happened. On a smaller scale it's exactly like London, everyone in their postcode: Clifton, Totterdown, Lawrence Hill etc c.f. Islington, Brixton, Brent etc. Even now, the other side of the country, if I catch a train to Nunhead, for example, the ticket guy does that watch your back eyebrows thing. Soon moving to the North East where, outside of Newcastle, it's much like the UK was in 1980. Which I remember fondly.
Good luck with your move! My son was at university in Durham until recently - and I agree, the countryside. towns and villages in the area are reminiscent of our lost society and culture. We have moved to Cornwall to find again our country.
Where in Cornwall do you live in Cornwall, Bettina? My daughter went to university in Falmouth a couple of years ago and I joined the Navy in Torpoint many years ago.
Oh I know Torpoint very well!! Boyfriend was a naval dentist at the base - must have been 1979 or 1980 at the start of his commission. Currently backwards and forwards to Cornwall from Marlow - building a house in Feock - although I used to live on the north coast and my daughters live down there....
Nice! I also lived on Plymouth Hoe for a year after I got married, before I went to America.
I had my teeth savaged by a Naval dentist in 1982. I hope that wasn't your boyfriend!
At the time, new entrants were the lowliest of the low and dentists had complete authority over them. The dentist wanted to replace my broken front teeth with crowns and I did as I was told. Every dentist since has laughed at me saying my crowns looked like they were from the stone age. I am still having problem 40 years later!
I'm from that part of the U.K (Somerset) and actually had family in Trowbridge. The South West is gorgeous and I try to get back whenever possible.
I so agree with you! It seems the policy in this country has been to encourage segregation rather than integration, for example with government agencies providing information in twenty different languages rather than encouraging newcomers to use English.
I had an Indian boyfriend in the mid-Seventies and he was one of 5 children. His father hated English people (obviously had a chip on his shoulder) and was always trying to arrange Indian marriages for his offspring, who were totally culturally assimilated in England (being a significant minority at that time) and they laughingly rejected (and importantly because they were integrated were ABLE to reject) the idea of their father picking their spouses. They all married ethnically English and Dutch people.
Fast forward 30 years and I'm living in a wealthy Indian enclave on the London - Hertfordshire border called Moor Park, which the locals jokingly referred to as Moor Pakistani. In fact it wasn't Pakistani at all, but mainly Hindu. It is Little India with very large houses occupied by extended and multi-generational Indian families. (Hilariously, a Sikh friend used to moan that he needed to move into Buckinghamshire because he couldn't stand living where there were no English people!). Anyway, the result was that the Indian community in that area and surroundings have become a world within a world: marriages are arranged within the community, children only play with other children from their ethnic grouping and the local prep schools and holiday camps were 'spot the white kid'. At my daughters' school as soon as the girls became teenagers, the Indian parents who had hitherto been friendly and would reciprocate with play dates, would from the age of 11, stop them mixing with the white girls because they thought they would lead them astray into decadent behaviour - so there was very little mixing, bar a few rebels. Even at a young age they were not encouraged to mix - I remember inviting two muslim children to one of my daughter's birthday parties and they refused to eat anything because it was 'unclean' (they were too young to know how to be diplomatic and were obviously parroting a parental warning) and they sat mute through the entire proceedings because they felt alien, despite my best endeavours to encourage them to join in the games. They all only adopted this behaviour because they didn't NEED to integrate - they had their own communities.
In my opinion, we need zero immigration - simply on the basis that we are an overcrowded country with an inability to feed ourselves without imports - madness in a politically unstable world where Net Zero will demand that there is no air travel and no shipping certainly by 2050 - sounds like a recipe for food rationing leading to malnutrition and the sorts of diseases that were prevalent in Victorian England. I start to get all conspiracy theorist with this - population reduction is surely the aim, no? We have insufficient housing (and no, the answer is not to build on agricultural land and exacerbate a brewing food shortage; nor is it to house people in towering chicken coops in cities - totally inhuman) and creaking infrastructure. Secondly, we need hyper-integration - in education, reasserting our culture and values and fantastic history in schools and universities; and with social integration, mixing our genes to create biologically superior hybrids - like plants, resistant to disease, good-looking and intelligent!
Naomi Wolf has written on her Substack about the change in America in recent decades - how new immigrants do not feel the need to integrate and become American any more. She describes California growing up as like your experience in Silicon Valley - in fact, I think she lived near there - maybe you've read her stuff - it's so good. She was a leftie, like you! No longer.
I totally agree, Bettina! (I have a feeling that you and I agreed in another post recntly- LSO) I think the combination of high numbers and cultures who refuse to (or don't need to) integrate is a recipe for disaster, and erodes the social fabric. As you mentioned, this was forced on the locals and it has dramatically altered their lives. Irreversibly. Yet, they are called 'racists' when they dare to complain.
I'm so vividly reminded of that snooty Labour politician, I forget her name but she married into the aristocracy, who tweeted out her horror at entering the Medway towns (Strood to be precise) due to all the white vans and England flags. It was very probably about eight years ago, during one of those optimistic two-week periods where the football team hadn't been knocked out of the footy, yet.
Yes, I remember that. Incredible! I live in Hungary and there is still a strong sense of cultural identity here, where raising the flag or singing the national anthem is not frowned upon.
100% and I love how you extended the party metaphor; just so!
Exactly this.
When regular people express many of the sentiments you do, they are dismissed as xenophobes and bigots. So it’s no wonder that they begin to resent the newcomers.
Personally I think they should reserve their resentment for those who imposed this change upon them and their communities in the first place. Very often those people, the elites, have no experience of the negative effects of mass, sudden immigration on their own lives. They just get the Baba Ganoush.
Great stuff Ragged.
Thank you, Mr LSO. I've meaning to write this for a while. There was just one too many "they are just racists" comments on Twitter this morning that got me typing.
Yes. It’s not helping. It’s like people aren’t allowed to notice how their towns and communities are changing. And are punished if they do. I try to stay off Twitter. It’s vexing, as the kids say.
I really enjoyed this post and just came across it by chance (when reading your comments on 2 other substacks) Until some years ago, I was very firmly left/liberal/pro-immigration, but I experienced a number of redpill moments. I am not anti-immigration, though. I just feel that (as Bettina mentioned) numbers matter, but so does culture and the reasons why you are immigrating. As we have seen from events in the U.K, Germany, France and elsewhere it definitely isn't always because you like the country you are moving to. In some cases, you actually hate it and want to do it harm (as with home-grown terrorism) I liked your analogy of the party. I think multiculturism can only work when all parties are invested in making it work. And the more incompatible the culture, and higher the number, the less likely that will happen, until, eventually, you have parallel societies.
I am still pro-immigration but I think it's important to acknowledge and understand the other side's point of view. And, though I support immigration, I think the numbers are out of control in the UK and I hope the incoming government is able to do something about them.
Thanks for stopping by, Through the Looking Glass!
I completely agree. I read somewhere 'It's about space not race' and I think that's quite accurate. I dislike the way people have been accused of being far right/racist, when that generally isn't their reason for opposing mass immigration.
I'm an immigrant but not part of an immigrant community (while being in contact with it through some work I do), and I am HEAVILY skewed towards assimilationism, partially because I genuinely think that in terms of values and ways the host culture is significantly better than the original culture in 9 out of 10 matters. Food and drink notwithstanding. And the attitudes of contempt and judgement that that particular group of immigrants displays when talking among themselves TOWARDS the host culture makes me genuinely want to kick them back where they came from. The fact that I work with people who require help in the justice system or social services context probably biases me heavily, but still.
Even putting aside the question of whether one culture is superior to another, it’s a little odd to go to another country and reject the host culture entirely. As with my party above, it’s cool to bring along a special dish from the old country but it’s rude to entirely reject what the hosts are serving.
It is not by any means a wholesale rejection, but still pretty rude imo.
I tend to feel repelled by the idea of 'assimilation' when it comes to immigration.
It seems to me there are two options to avoid the 'separate cultures forming their own little islands' issue when it comes to immigrants. Assimilate or Integrate. I'm an integrationist! People should become an integral part of the whole - absolutely wonderfully themselves but also very much mixing and sharing with people from different cultures within the community. They should not have to assimilate to be 'the same, or similar'.
I agree with this entirely. I think there's a fear of subsuming the minority culture by the majorly -- assimilation by accident or force -- that can drive the separation.
That said, sometimes you need to make a choice, because the values and customs are in conflict. The best example is probably child upbringing, where host culture (and law!) might for example forbid corporal punishment, or arranged marriage at early age, or parents forcing children to participate in religious rituals, and the immigrant culture might clash with that, not just on a community level but full force of the law and social services.
Compliance with the law in your country of residence is a distinct issue though.
Groups can, and do, lobby for a change in the law, but until, and only if, that change is made then non-compliance is a criminal offence.
Non-compliance with actual laws can't really be conflated with people having legal, but different, cultural practices.
I'm a child of migrants and I agree. However, I think it's important to recognise that migration in large numbers tends to be because of mass upheaval in the countries of the migrants. Given the prolific interference of successive British governments in the affairs of said countries, any discontent, or anger, about it should be taken up with the government, not taken out on the migrants themselves! Get the government, along with its partners in crime the US and various EU countries, to stop causing mayhem and economic misery abroad and the problem would go away.
I'd also like to mention that it's not just loss of culture that's an issue when mass migrations occurs. It floods job markets in areas already struggling with unemployment and/or low wages, allows for exploitative 0 hour contracts, and causes rent increases - all of these affect the poorest members of society.
Sadly, anger at these outcomes is often expressed in 'racist' languages and I think that's because people are deliberately not equipped with the language and the economic knowledge to express their real concerns. And that's convenient for those who benefit most; both from the upheaval that caused the mass migration, and the problems it causes in the countries people migrate to!
I agree that many of the problems were caused by Empire and British intervention in other countries’ business but, eventually, we’ll have to stop blaming the governments of long ago. As I said in my post, I think immigration is fine — a good thing even — but it's a question scale. If there are too many immigrants coming from a culture that is very different than ours, it’s hard for them to integrate.
I agree with the rest of your comment but would add that racism was horrific in the 50s and 60s. It has not gone away entirely but it is much better than it was. We are getting better, I think.
By 'Successive Governments' I was not inferring past and not present. I make no claim that interference stopped at any point. It's ongoing right up to the government of TODAY!
We can definitely blame the governments of today!
And that's the point I'm making... 'Too many immigrants coming from a culture that is very different than ours' wouldn't happen if the government wasn't wreaking havoc in their country. So we can get all sniffy about them not being able to integrate but maybe they just really, really, really would LOVE to go home!
And anyway, what is 'ours' when it comes to culture?
I think the “blame imperialism” argument is a bit of a red herring. I just moved to the UK from Poland, which has never had an empire and which hasn’t been involved in the internal politics of any countries which aren’t a direct neighbour. Nevertheless, immigration and the difficulties of how to persuade people to integrate is a big political issue there.
My problem with the view that Orwell promoted is that there is not … nor has there ever been … a sense of British culture that anyone has ever been able to define or agree upon. The “British” culture to which Orwell alludes was just as much inside his head as the supposed notion you mention that somehow Brits are in thrall to drinking IPA. The idea that we all, somehow, cling onto the same thing, is a nonsense.
The problem is change. With or without the presence of immigrants (from wherever) there IS change. The UK in 2025 has a radically different culture from the UK of 1925 or 1825 or ….
Change WILL happen. The question is only this: what change do we embrace and what do we reject? And why? “Integration” is really only a way of saying the change should be smooth rather than turbulent … it should really not predetermine precisely what happens.
It may be that there is not and never has been a single thread of culture but we have common traditions like sharing a cup of tea and going for a beer at the pub after work that we would all recognise as British culture, even if we don't all take part.
Traditions change over time and, as I said, they change under the influence of immigrant cultures too. I welcome that. What I object to is an immigrant culture that maintains its separation from British culture. Multiculturism encourages this and, with immigration on the scale that we are currently experiencing, it happens too quickly.
Dream on. Going for a drink after work is something I, and many others, have never done. Far too likely to have to endure some opinionated bar-room pundit. Many would regard it as a failing in British society.
Too many people bandy the word “multiculturalism” about, claiming it has failed. In fact it was so ill-defined in the first place that there are no criteria by which it can be judged to have failed. We are where we are and finger-pointing exercises are no solution.
So what is your workable plan?? Without one, what you are saying amounts to very little. Carrots rather than sticks would be best I think.
I lived in Silicon Valley for over twenty years. It must be the most ethnically diverse community in the world and yet everyone hangs out together. There are Chinese festivals and everyone goes. Everyone eats Ethiopian food together. Everyone celebrates Diwali and goes to the Dicken's Faire and everyone's kids play soccer on a Saturday afternoon. When we had kids' friends over for a sleepover, we averaged six different ethnicities every time.
In my English city, now that I am home, the Somalis hang out together in one corner and the Pakistanis in another. Neither group talks to the other or to the English natives. Whenever I see a multi-ethnic group of schoolchildren, they are segregated.
Someone decided long ago that it is more important for immigrants to maintain their native culture than to integrate with ours. That is multi-culturalism.
There are about 70 pubs within a mile of my house and they are full every evening — with white people.
Dream on. Now be realistic.
Yes, but at the risk of repeating myself: your plan is what?? Without a plan, it all sounds like Chicken Licken running about saying the sky is going to fall in. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Maybe we will have bigger things to worry about. But, what plan do you have??
More controversially, we could limit immigration from cultures that don't seem to want to mix. Some cultures have a culture of misogyny and patriarchy that makes it harder for women to integrate. I think that high achievers integrate much better too (and perhaps that helps explain why Silicon Valley is so integrated) .
> I think an acknowledgement that encouraging different cultures to remain distinct is a bad idea would be a good start.
I think there's a lot that we could do to encourage communities to mix a lot more than they do. Recent immigrants especially, in Bristol, seem to have no interest in mixing with other cultures.
Indeed no. But then I don’t think the ones doing that would deign to “hang out” with members of other communities. It seems to me that they are the isolationists, not the immigrants.
The more we live in separate communities the more likely there will be conflict IMO regardless of the good intentions of good people like you.
Where I live in Bristol, people from other ethnic groups seem to have no ambition to make friends outside their communities. I've spoken to only one Somali in seven years.
So well done the others for not going to the pub.
Why should everyone hang out together?? We get on well enough day to day. Mostly people spend down-time with their families.
I, too, live in an ethnically diverse community in the UK. There is a mosque within 5 minutes walk. The pubs are by and large white … and I would not dream of setting foot in them because they are, frankly, naff. Diwali is celebrated, as is Chinese New Year. There is an Asian food store, a Korean supermarket, a Turkish cafe, a sushi bar and a regular greengrocer’s shop, as well as a Coop and a Sainsbury’s. The lads over the road from me are Sri Lankans, the bloke two doors down (native Brit) is married to. an Indonesian Muslim woman. Four doors down there is an Iranian married to a Danish woman. Four doors the other way there is a mixed rave marriage … both Brits by birth.
The UK is not, and never has been, like the USA. So your point is what, exactly?? And if you think there is a problem, I repeat my central question: what workable plan do you have to solve the problem??
Your point being what, precisely?? Why do you expect people to go to the pub?? Our NHS might not be so stretched if there was less alcohol consumed.
I think if we don't hang out together, it increases the risk of racial and ethnic resentment which will potentially lead to violence and political overreaction.
I believe the existing policy was misguided and I don't know how to fix it but I think an acknowledgement that encouraging different cultures to remain distinct is a bad idea would be a good start.
There are plenty of people I talk to. Why do you assume that there is increased risk of holding racial and ethnic resentment because I don’t actually hang out with them??? I used to have nice chats about gardening with the bloke at our local Bangladeshi takeaway while waiting to pick up the meal. The only piece of steaming resentment I recall recently was from a well-spoken taxi driver from Syria who had come to this country, paid his way through a business law degree at Leicester and then found himself frozen out of jobs and having to drive taxis to pay off his debts. There was teal bitterness there, and I can’t say I blame him, because he was clearly very bright.
Now who was it who was refusing to hang out with whom??
So your plan is what??
It's great that you are able to talk to people of other ethnicities but you aren't the one burning down mosques or starting race riots.
Hello Ragged. I hope you are well. Great stuff, and as always I am always interested in your take on our current world. But please, it’s not soccer…..😆
I played football three times a week in California for twenty years. Every time I tell someone I played football in California, they say, English football or American football? I decided to cut out the middleman.
Wandered over from Slouching Towards Bethlehem, and I'm glad I did. Particularly like how you quote Orwell's very relevant words. He was, still is, sneered at for appreciating Englishness, strong cups of tea, and his early days in the colonial service. More recently he is taken to task for maybe being something of a womanizer, if not rather a cnut towards women. The urge to cancel that which we disapprove of, to banish it altogether, is deeply suspect. And the insistence that 'natives' change their ways, or at least keep quiet, so that newer guests feel more comfortable, is exactly the same. Your party analogy summarises this really well.
Having been non-carnivorous all my adult life I see many, mostly younger, people who stridently insist that the majority who enjoy barbecues, pork chops, and a Sunday roast, refrain from doing so if you don't mind. I totally get what people do.
As it happens my favourite local shop is the butchers. I don't much appreciate the raw meat or the smells of the spicy sausages but the bargain sacks of potato, exotic cheeses and fresh veggies are fabulous and my momentary discomfort is soon forgotten.
Really it's just good manners isn't it? Another thing George Orwell was pretty keen on. I will laugh long and loud if Reform achieve an electoral break-through in the next few weeks. Lots of people are saying they will vote for them as an f.u. to the smug leaders-in-waiting. The exact same people who chant about Rights, and BLM, and stab you in the back at the first opportunity,
Thanks RC.
It is just good manners, yes, Karen. Thanks for stopping by.
Cultural loss? Doesn't culture move on...?
And anyway... what do these bereft people do about it? Do they set up a morris dancing club? Do they learn about Churchill desperately rounding up allies to defeat nazism?
No ... when the fancy takes them they put a banger up their arse.
They vote for Reform and Brexit and Trump.